FOR x 🥌 🥌 🥌 🥌
↳ dev.vandelaytech.eth
↳ 0x32d1...d4f5
↳ lilnounscoffee.eth
↳ nonlinear.eth

AGAINST x 🥌 🥌 🥌
↳ nounburger.eth
↳ hirocrypto.eth
↳ 0x2dd0...Efb1

ABSTAIN x 🥌
↳ sewerpipe.eth

Throwing weight behind zero weight votes with reason.

Thankful for the opportunity to share my thoughts with Drew IRL this week as far as both concerns and support go.

Copping out with an abstain, but feel confident that this will be a success and an exciting place to gather in LA.

+1 to 4156 and noun40. They’ve said very thoughtful points, so I won’t rehash what’s already been covered

Physical gathering places are incredibly important. We can have 10X better sensemaking via in-person discussions than we can remotely or via governance. Having a physical space enables this, even if it’s hard to get to an ownership structure that satisfies everyone. (Trust me on that one, I did this for Constitution DAO.)

There are some concerns about an acquisition-based approach versus starting one from scratch, which I frankly don’t understand. An acquisition reduces risk. Opening small businesses in LA or SF is incredibly hard, with an uncertain timeline and a highly variable budget. The acquisition makes sure that this is turnkey and gives us much greater certainty that the team can deliver.

A gathering place is necessary, and this team is the best one I can think of to do it. We’ve spent far more on less tangible items, like media. We’ve given far more to potentially profitable businesses. In comparison to precedent, this is something very new for Nouns with a budget that is in line with other initiatives. Excited to see what comes from it.

sent from voter.wtf

+1 Noun40. Excited to see this take shape!

FOR - 17 VOTES

mindtoasted | "IMHO, I think we got to allow all the perfect planning on all of this kind of prop, Yes on this."

borg00000 | "NOC"

benbodhi | "Ultimately I like this kind of thing. I hear all of the concerns, and question some of the costs myself, but I think it's worth doing."

AGAINST - 23 VOTES

akva556 | "If you don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you about my vote, sorry."

ABSTAINS - 4 VOTES

make us proud

https://www.lilnouns.wtf/vote/nounsdao/450/votes FOR 13 VOTES 0xae4705dC0816ee6d8a13F1C72780Ec5021915Fed | "drew is a probe.wtf enjoyer = true fan, so I'm For this - great publicity opportunity for Nouns, and the first permanent IRL NOC space ⌐◨-◨" AGAINST 199 VOTES 0x36A5Bc205DF1ED65C86301022cfc343a6ce546ff | "Very much against buying property for a private individual with the Nouns treasury." 0xc6a39E2f9A7626612292AD56e76d738DB43596E4 | "this proposal makes sense as a business loan from a commercial bank the risk:reward ratio for the DAO and precedent set are no good imo" 0x2767eDfee9f5ba743511Ee4187A596B302B43938 | "The dao should not normalise business purchases for proposers" 0x2eE0485f71764bcD2062A84d9455688c581B90f8 | "I don’t understand the dynamics. " ABSTAINS 89 VOTES 0x63aa1670aBAF10b93a8fD9804eA304641Ec8aCE8 | "Until the implementation of autonomous voting for off-chain props, I vote abstain on Nouns props." 0x9e0e9D25a5ED9bc773f91691f0b45599255257B1 | "I'll only vote on proposals that require explanations once the proposer attends our weekly calls to explain them."

+1 Seneca and 40. Team seems likely to deliver something solid with a lot of positive externalities. The prop is a little succinct regarding the redesign - that might be intentional. I just hope you guys invest in making this look like a cohesive and unique experience, kinda like an Apple Store for nouns. If you need a nounish architect to sketch some 3D idea, happy to help!

+1 to Noun 40's reason here. Although it feels more explicit here, Nouns often engages in the practice of seeding businesses without explicit financial upside. The model is built on the idea that we get upside via provenance and meme proliferation, not via equity in every single thing we fund.

The coffee shop should be evaluated on the idea itself, which seems explicitly great. LA is a creative capitol of the world, and it would be great to have a community space run by skilled operators that deeply understand what we're trying to do here. I just think the founder-idea-market fit is so great here it would be a shame to turn down the opportunity. I would be ready to bet money that nontrivial amount and quality of new people will learn about, contribute to, and even buy Nouns if this coffee shop is a success.

I think the criticism and feedback is valid but I'm willing to risk it with this particular team. There's something special with these two. But also -- this brings a lot of pressure to execute which I believe they can and will do.

I think the deli was a better approach but I'm willing to take a risk here especially with the level of proliferation from the prop alone. Haven't see this much excitement for a prop from non-nousfold since the Pudgy prop. As Seneca said, make us proud!

Reverse engineering this from an ideal Nouns state, it becomes clear that the output of props like this not only fit the picture but are required to make the picture more complete. From that pov, taking on the risk becomes easier to justify and ultimately concludes on the feeling that if we can’t attempt stuff like this, the experiment is bound to fail. Make us proud!

Coffee shop

Would have presented some renders and/or sketches of the proposed renovation/redesign. Can see this turning into something very cool, a self sustaining daily proliferation effort for Nouns. Imagine people bidding on Nouns from the cafe via fiat onramp, listening/participating in to live NOC, potential permanent home for Dustin Yellin sculpture, rotation of community art etc. Worth it for NOC IRL venue alone imo. At a similar price to the 30 second animation recently funded this seems like a fair deal to me. Also Drew is a https://probe.wtf enjoyer (Nounish).

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⬜️🟥🟥🟥⬜️⬛️🟥⬜️
⬜️🟥⬜️🟥⬜️⬛️🟥⬜️
⬜️⬜️⬜️🟥🟥🟥🟥⬜️
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(noun40 voting via agora)

i've been chewing on this prop for a while... it's not simple! but i'm shaking out in support, voting FOR

it seems like most ppl are hung up on the issue of nouns financing the cost of a business acquisition and the proposers ending up with the ownership of the acquired business. in face value it seems odd for the DAO to just buy a tangible asset like this for a prop builder. certainly it feels unfair to someone like nounburger.eth who renovated a burger shop that he personally owned and just charged the dao for rebranding costs only. that is indeed the maximally selfless behavior. and i don't want to minimize such selfless precedents.

on the other hand, if you think about it, is nouns movie that different? atrium is a venture backed business. we fully expect them to sell the nouns movie to streaming platforms and make money doing so. it's an intangible asset but we've nonetheless financed atrium in producing a $2mm intangible asset that they own and have the ability to sell. agora is also not too dissimilar. agora isn't venture backed per se but it is a for profit owned by yitong and charlie. yes they built the software initially just for us without certainty there would be a market but still the facts are that we funded $300k for the prototype version of the software that they've now further built enterprise value into by serving larger daos like optimism, ens, and uniswap (and getting paid by those daos to do so). i don't believe agora's codebase is open source (at least yet?). even something like TNS has business-like characteristics. they are building up media properties and fans that over time can have generate sponsorships and ad revenue and be profitable. reality is that we've just not viewed any of this funding as financing intangible assets that can be sold b/c none of them are actually profitable at the moment and thus it's unclear if the intangible assets they own will be worth anything. the facts are also that the prop builders are mostly motivated by their love for the nouns brand and nouns ideals and aren't doing a strict ROI decision on their part either. yitong's current effort around making the nouns x PG animation created by the line studio is mostly a labor of love independent of building enterprise value into agora.

i think in the theoretical purist version of the world nouns funds only strict public goods. all software should be open sourced and free for others to use. all content should be cc0 and not sold for further distribution. also in this idealized world there's a deep minting economy such that creators of these pure public goods could still sell the one thing they can sell without restricting access—provenance of their work (NFTs)—and such these talented people with high opportunity costs could still experience meaningful upside while producing pure public goods.

the reality is that we don't yet have this deep public goods minting economy. if we want these prop builders to create pure public goods then we effectively want them to work without potential for outsized upside. of course we have examples of people that are doing this too. sasquatch, who leads nouns esports, worked without a paycheck for the past year plus (giving all salaries to players and staff), has built a internationally competitive dota team that has real enterprise value (companies like Shopify spend millions trying to build a team like this), and yet still plans on incorporating nouns esports as a non profit not taking any of the enterprise value built for himself. that's wild and incredibly selfless but i don't know if it's realistic to just expect every prop builder to be like sasquatch where they work tirelessly and achieve incredible international feats while letting go of upside potential.

personally, i think at least for now it makes sense for nouns to subsidize some of the non existent upside (we finance the acquisition or production of something prop builders have the right to sell in the future). in the future ppl might make nouns movies financing it themselves just b/c they think it will do well in box offices sales (b/c nouns has millions of fans across the world). or they might make that movie and release it for free b/c they think the minting revenue from onchain nouns fans could be enough to turn a profit. but we don't live in those worlds yet and we have to fund the things we want to see happen. also even in the success future steady state we might still be open to funding businesses if it still incentivizes exceptional ppl to start nounish projects or allows for a degree of self sustainability that would otherwise not be possible (for example atrium could potentially make another nouns movie from the distribution deal proceeds of the first movie and keep going which would be epic and wouldn't be possible if we didn't allow atrium to monetize the distribution of its first movie).

well, does this then mean that anyone can come to the dao and ask to be bought or paid to create and own something and we just give it to them? of course not. ultimately we sell one signed copy of artwork every day. every funding decision we make has to be weighed against whether it is a good spend compared to the potential value it can add to our signature, making that signed original copy more valuable. "does it compound our provenance?" is another version of the same question. it's tricky b/c compounding provenance isn't quite as clear as compounding cash flow. for a long time it might not be clear if we're getting anywhere in the same that that for an artist like jack butcher it can be unclear if he was building any provenance worth anything for years. so yes it's subjective, that's the nature of the journey that we're on, but the voters are ultimately making a subjective decision about what has the best chance at building provenance over the long term (and they've paid for the right to do so).

when i look at this prop with that lens, yes $650k is a big chunk of money, and the $300k business acquisition cost is a big upfront subsidy (financing free equity value into the endeavor), but when i look at the duo that's proposing this i don't know if there's another duo that can drum up more more attention within the intersection of coffee culture and crypto culture at the cultural capital of the world LA and if a $300k subsidy is what we have to pay to sweeten up the deal for these two to commit a good chunk of their working life to this endeavor in the coming years then so be it. i think it's a deal that we take. the amount of excitement a prop drums up on twitter / farcaster from the genuine onchain communities is always a soft proxy i use to gauge the value of a prop and it's clearly high for this prop esp from crypto communities that i feel have something "real" (farcaster, FWB, etc).

it's a big bet but i'm super excited for drew and derek to sink their teeth into a nouns coffee business. make us proud!

there’s realistically no clear path right now for the dao to own a coffee shop. it also seems unlikely that an existing coffee shop would permanently convert their business into a nouns shop, and even if they did, the location and founder/ market fit wouldn’t be as good as this. so the choices are pay this team ~3-500k (in the form of coffee shop equity) to run this experiment, or don’t run it at all. the crypto economy has all sorts of idiosyncrasies. people have earned airdrops of this size for simply using a novel protocol. they have earned 100x this amount buying tokens whose only value proposition is that they're named after cute dogs and frogs. we justify all sorts of unusual behaviour in the name of experimentation and libertarianism. in this context the coffee shop equity is a high but acceptable one-time price to run this experiment, and unless it is an outright rug (which seems improbable given the team), it will be well earned over the lifetime of the project. best of luck and can’t wait to visit at noun o’clock

Deep down I believe nouns should fund big, bold, exciting ideas by incredible individuals, and everything else is noise.

I know there has been a lot of discussion around this prop, but I haven't kept up with most of it. So I'm basing my reasoning solely on the actual proposal.

I'm a big fan of the whole concept. Like the idea of a permanent nounish coffe place; Like the team involved; Like the spot in LA. Overall very nounish.

For me it comes down to one factor. If we are purchasing the coffe shop I believe the DAO should have a % in the profits, be it small, but something. The DAO is taking all the risk. I know logistically it might be complicated, but it is possible.
Also I must say 150K for nounish training seems high to me particularly.

Outside of that would be a yes.

If this was to buy a coffee shop owned by the DAO sure why not. Using 650k to buy a coffee shop for someone else which they will own themselves? Stop the grift.

+1 brennen

the proposal is very well written and the team have a fantastic background however, it's hard for me to get behind the current structure. i don't believe the dao should be the one to take on all the risk here, but instead, should be used to provide leverage

i do not hold any nouns, but if i did, i would vote in favor. the scope and scale of this proposal is inspiring, and delivers on the promise of what values-aligned onchain groups can achieve together.

this is an opportunity for nouns to do what its always done: think big, take risks, and lead by example.

many notable art and cultural movements began in coffee shops. this could be the beginning of something special. given drew and derek’s backgrounds, its easy to imagine the nounish coffee shop becoming ground zero for crypto culture in la: events venue, web3 prototyping lab, and r&d space. if it works there it could work elsewhere. nyc, austin, miami. the world

don’t miss the forest for the trees nouns

"The cost is unreasonable. 150k for training????

Also we're paying to buy a Coffee Shop for someone else's benefit, which is a terrible deal for the DAO, not sustainable and doesn't and can't scale. Would anyone do this with their own money -- just buy someone else a coffee shop with no strings or contract? Bad precedent and expensive, and the business itself is into a very fragile industry for independent operators -- setting aside all the preceding warts, the base rate of the industry is not our friend. This isn't Nounish.

I think it is wonderful to create a coffee shop.
But what about the appearance of this store, the menu, the staff uniforms? How will the staff be trained, what kind of aesthetics and philosophy will make this place a great place for Nouns, etc. It doesn't have to be perfect, but there are so many things I don't understand. It makes it less exciting.

There is lot going for this prop - LA is a big creative hub ( almost one of most priciest ) which can rightfully attract a lot of good future proposers. It's likely a much needed IRL gathering spot for nounish folks.

I love how it tries to create a moment around auctions (noun'o clock). The proposers look like skilled operators and although Restaurants & FnB is a difficult industry, this seems relatively well setup already to have lesser risk?

Having said all that - acquiring a business does not seem like a right precedent to set, and i couldn't get over the fence on that one.

Would be a yes without that part. In similar spirit to Nouns Deli.

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I believe this has the potential to become a nouns pilgrimage site. I hope the team will conduct thorough research and purchase the best property in terms of location, price, and sustainability.

I am obviously a F@#K YEAH when it comes to Nouns IRL physical stores and was genuinely excited when I read this proposal title. More the merrier imo, as im very confident in the large proliferation potential with them. I'm a big fan of the concept, team, and location; that's a no-brainer for me. The potential for collaborations with Nouns Deli and even Lil Bev's seems seamless, which is another reason I wanted to support this prop.

However, I do not support the dao purchasing the business for the team (or any team). This 'experiment' is about proliferation, which imo the dao would be funding through the 'Nounish makeover and renovation' and 'Initial staffing, training, and Nouns culture integration' - which seems pricey. The idea of purchasing a business without any stake or revenue share would be dismissed in any other setting, maybe not here.? No financial commitments by proposers have been flagged in past proposals. My concern is about the precedent this sets - what comes next if the dao open this door? While I wish the team the best of luck, As someone engaged in this domain on a day-to-day basis, I felt it would be a disservice to the dao not to voice my concerns here. ✌️

sent from voter.wtf

I believe in Nouns and coffee in a big way. I also think Derek and Drew are a uniquely qualified team for this project. I can't imagine we'll have a physical space in LA of all places for a lower cost. Good luck gentlemen!

This is an exciting prop that Nouns is uniquely suited to fund and benefit from. Free coffee at Noun O'clock extends the celebration into the real world. This will introduce many to Nouns, some who realize they can get free coffee daily and will have to tune into Noun O'clock and thus the auction page to find out when. This is a powerful mechanic to encourage members of the general public to learn more about Nouns and tune in. Having a physically location and schelling point for the Ethereum community in the U.S. second largest city is also exciting. This becomes the default place to connect, host meetups and throw events for Ethereum in L.A. with a strong Nouns presence at each one. As noted by my sponsorship message, the team are experts in the food and beverage space having opened up 4 coffee shops (3 in CA) between them of extremely high quality. They are high integrity people who have the rare distinction of being respected in both the Ethereum and L.A. coffee communities. I am looking forward to visiting and enjoying a high quality cup of coffee while I enjoy Nouns.

Very ⌐◨-◨ the first onchain cafe!? What a time

I have personally debated myself on where I land on this proposal. On one hand I love everything about the opportunity and what it could be for nouns IRL. However, on the other hand I feel as though there is an imbalance of financial risk between the new owners and nouns. They are not putting up any funding themselves and the cost structure for the deal doesn't make a lot of sense (150k for training). Normally I rather see already current owners (who have taken on massive risk to start and spend their own capital to start a business) want to convert their shop to a nounish one. Giving money directly to these folks just doesn't feel right. I love the idea and it's why I am voting abstained. Best of luck!

not against this overall & team seems more than qualified.

tho still

this is not afaict, free coffee notwithstanding, a first order public good, or is at least a very "la" sort of one. No shade whatsoever as someone with CA roots, but suspect most that come here will see it immediately as 'sponsored content.' nouns brand is imo much more attractive than 'capital one' so it doesn't necessarily mean people will be turned off.

as we wind down the treasury, what do we want in our portfolio to point to as exciting positive-impact projects that are relatable to the sort of people likely to show up in a place like this?

do think this earns the dao a very small amount of goodwill relative to other things we could do &&, wrt energizing our base, i personally think gifting 17 nouns to regular contributors would be a powerful alternative in the near & long term, at roughly the same dilutive cost.

this network is, after all, built around governance, & nouns is suffering badly due to its incentive design & resultantly unhealthy token distribution.
it's nothing against this prop specifically but i think many are still seeing things upside down wrt generating renewed & sustainable energy to nouns (in that sense this prop is, imo, much like the product it aims to sell).

it can't all be marketing. but this is the prop in front of us, &, unless consensus forms on reworking exit or recirculating nouns at scale, there is an emergent burn mandate and I don't think this is a rug.

Feeling very grateful to be able to vote for this proposal, even with 0 votes. Drew and Derek have been great members of the broader Nouns community, and are the perfect team to bring this to life. There is risk with any large proposal, but this team's expertise - with running coffee shops, Nouns, community, and crypto as a whole - has de-risked it as much as is possible. We should take this bet.

I can't wait to see this coffee shop come to life in LA and become a hub for the city's onchain scene!